Sun Jiabo: Professor from the Department of Sculpture, Central Academy of Fine Arts

Sun Jiabo: When I was first in the Affiliated High School to CAFA, he was working in the studio. Then, he had bad luck and went to Henan. Later, he came back for the second time as the Department invited him back to work on pottery, and I came back for my postgraduate degree, so we came back together.

Reporter: What impressed you the most when you were in contact with him?

Sun Jiabo: We had an electric kiln at that time in our Department. The house was so dirty and messy that no one would like to go there. I ran to Mr. Liu to work with him because I liked to make ceramics, just for fun.

Reporter: No one went there?

Sun Jiabo: No one did. In our electric kiln room, apart from the shabby broken things, there was a nest of cats, including a leopard cat, which gave birth to five kittens, very cute. There were too many fleas there. One day a student delivered a letter to me there, but I was not in, so he came inside for a while. As a result, he ran out with his legs all red, bitten by the fleas. Thus, we dared not go in again , but he would arrive every day. I told him not to go there any more since there were too many fleas, and they would eat him up, but he did not listen to me. Instead, he went in, with the bottoms of his trousers tightly tied, shirt off, and he kept on working there. I once went in, but ran out immediately. In the afternoon, I went there, only to find that he was all red, bitten by the fleas. With his body all red, he ignored all of this, but stayed there working, working on an item that he had not finished the day before, which was a figurine of the Monk Jigong. So you see, the work was more important for him. 

What’s going on? That’s his extreme commitment, so I said you chose him, it is the right one, because he is a real person. He is the most sincere person. He is very sincere both to people and to his art. It is particularly clear that he is simply for his art, which is quite different from many current society popular masters, a lot of whom nowadays are only in it for money, or to be famous. He is not, he behaves like that only because he likes it. I think this is the most fundamental aspect for an artist. He just sincerely dedicates himself to it. Some people say he is a national artist, and some people say whatever he is, but most fundamentally, he is just for art, not for anything else. This is extremely valuable, so I think he has influenced me a lot. Now I have a concept: for money, it is enough if I make ends meet, but for art, I must concentrate on it. I have learnt my philosophy of life from him, as he has exerted a great influence on me.

Reporter: Why is he going into that so deeply?

Sun Jiabo: He just likes it. Now, we often say it is for fun when we are creating a piece of work. We do not make it to sell for money, or for anything else, but we just do what we like. He especially liked that idea, and that’s from the recurrence of his feelings. I have now found that he is the most modern. I have an idea right now about what really contemporary art is. A lot of people analyze what the contemporary is and what the modern is. I think the modern is an international integration. Both China and foreign countries are all the same. When I say the same I do not mean the same style. For example, a foreigner makes a bunch of cow intestines and then we also make a bunch of cow intestines exactly like that. This is not modern. It is not like that but it is about the understanding of art. It is not in the so-called literary reproduction. That is to present things. The requirement in the past is to serve the workers, peasants and soldiers, and to serve socialism, but now this is to express the feelings of the artists. He especially loves what he wants to make, including the subject matter, the main theme. He is particularly fond of clay sculpture, so he dedicates himself to this. What comes out are the modern works, because he is a modern man. I think Mr. Liu embodies the modern ideas in place.

Reporter: From his life and his work, would you like to talk about his modernity? What is the international value? The most modern works are the ultimately valuable things created by the artists who put aside all the other things. These are the most modern works, always like this, from ancient times to the present day.

Sun Jiabo: I think every era has the characteristics of itself. Now we say he is contemporary, and as long as he's very committed, he is modern. I say so because there are always two kinds of artistic labor: as I have already said, some people want to gain money and to be famous, while others want to make a living. There is no other way since it is a means of earning a living. However, some people resign themselves to clay sculpture. He just likes that, so he goes in. He is doing it. Some people may do it well whereas some don't. Given the spirit of his devotion, he is making art. As long as he is a modern man, living in it, not away from the city, and he is dedicated, I think what he makes must be modern and contemporary. There is also a specific problem with this. He does not seek it from the form. If he starts from the form, to look for this modern thing this way or that, he will definitely not be modern. It starts from the expression of its feelings. It takes some form, so even if he's different from others, he is still modern. It is generally recognized that whether modern or not, an artist is generally poor. He has to take the poor fate for granted, since he is not for fame or wealth, but for art. No one else has recognized him. Like the Van Gogh, before others recognized him, he was just a poor man. Like Picasso, he was well known, so he was very rich when he was alive which however, is a special case. That's pretty rare right now. But now a lot of people think I am an artist, so my painting must be worth millions of yuan. That is misleading. His understanding, I think, is quite wrong.

As for the so-called peers, or the people in the field of sculpture, their views do not necessarily represent a very correct point of view. For example, they did not do a lot of new things, but I made a lot of changes, because I think it would look beautiful so I did it that way. I am not looking for the new way. I think his particular advantage is that he is very simple. A lot of people make costumes, and he does it, too, but he is completely different from the others. I often told the story to my students. Several of our artists went to France to hold exhibitions. They were investigating and studying, then had an exhibition. The exhibition had an oil painter at the time. The painting was of facial masks. He thought the deformation of the facial masks was both national and modern. However, a French man asked him what was the meaning of the facial masks and what he meant by doing that. He said it had no special meaning. He made art works of Peking Opera. He told the people that. What you do must have a meaning. He himself did not understand it at all! Then they told him that facial masks of Ancient Greek drama had political implications. All were of political significance. He didn't understand those words. He thought what he did was both national and modern, which could be recognized by other people.

Another good friend of ours, Guang Jun, saw a whole Samba (homophonic) into pieces of squares or triangles, with some painted black, and others painted white, he arranged them in lines and rows. The French said his works were the most modern. The French also said he was the most modern.

We all said his works were just like yours, not Chinese. Why people said that it was Chinese, because they believed that Chinese knew black and white the best. His black and white expressed what he wanted to say clearly. I think this shows either the national or the modern is not determined by the form. Whether his work is good or not is not determined by the changes of the form. For example, Mr. Liu has been doing it this way, very simple. His works of drama characters or figures in life seem very humble, especially in form, but he expressed his feelings very fully. He was moved, and felt that it specially touched him, then he made it, which is expressed fully. I think this is the best work of art. This should not be ignored only because it is not in a new form. That’s a different thing.

What Mr. Liu is particularly good is, from our professional sculpture perspective, that he especially understands the language of the volume. Simply put, he makes uneven works, and all of them are three-dimensional. You may find that a lot of sculptures are flat, which is not three-dimensional. Some people pursue true to nature, so the works look quite real, but not three-dimensional. A total of three students were there in his class, himself, Yu Jinyuan and Liu Xiaoqin. Two out of the three are particularly good at volume. Mr. Yu Jinyuan died at the young age, and he influenced me greatly on the awareness of the shape and volume. So it is with Mr. Liu. What he created is just like the something done by a layman. The shape he makes, although from the technique of Western carving, it is with a specific Chinese method, like kneading dough. The shape he makes is very complete, particularly vivid. He is very good at it.
Being flat makes the sense of volume not so strong an impact, so being regarded as kind of flat. It sounds too professional. That is to say they are all too far away.

For example, once I read a tabloid with a foreigner analyzing dazzling self-portraits. After he had analyzed more than 20 pieces, he found that the two eyes were different, with one eye being oblique. He said that precisely because of the oblique, it helped him express a sense of stereo on the plane. He said that if you could see the three-dimensional, usually you had to look at it directly. Looking at the three-dimensional space, he did it well in the plane. Many of us don't do 3 D space well in stereo, which is related a lot to the training, because the training has damaged your eyes. For example, just looking at the outline, one way is to put this shape together, concerning the relationship from plane to plane. I think this is a very big mistake, damaging your eyes by training. It's not impossible to find an outline, and it's not impossible to use planes, either, but after you know the complete form of the whole three-dimensional space, you can do it in any way you like to do. Instead of using these to shape it out, which is still incomplete, so it feels flat.

If I am to say, I will offend some people. Actually, it is not the problem of the Soviet teaching, but is the problem of the people who convey those things. They may not learn enough, and now people all over the country including the training classes for the College Entrance Examination, are teaching this way, the way from the Soviet Union, with an outline. When we were at that time in the Affiliated High School, some teachers who had come back from the Soviet Union taught us how to sketch, talking about how to use lines just like making straw mats, to train our eyes. But later I read the Soviet article, the author said he could not see the shape, his teacher had told him to see, asked him to open his eyes to see from the beginning to the end, but not to run around, nor to squint. In the beginning he could not see it, then he practiced and practiced, finally he managed to see the overall complete shape, which is a very good system.

The skill is the second, and mainly the entry point, the term is now used. What he is making, is that he is not making a real person, a natural person, and he is not doing this, but he is making the natural person he likes, and he likes doing it. For example, he made an actress in costume holding the child to pee. The actors' life is ordinary and quite hard, not what we see when are watching the opera. What he does is this. He is not making just a person wearing a costume, which is too superficial. He is expressing his love, and what he wants to say, so it can move the people who understand his works, and like his works. A lot of people are moved by this. He does not only make these little things in ordinary life. Look at the work he made, the fisherman carrying the boat, It is big. We used to serve the workers, peasants and soldiers, the heroic characters. It is that kind of momentum, very grand. When he made the work of the Great Leap Forward, he created the “Splitting the Mountains to Let the Water Flow”, which was affirmed by Soviet experts. At that time, he created many works but the Soviet experts said that this one was great at first glance among all those works. He is good in using the language of sculpture, expressing the spirit well, without showing the odds and ends, only what he really wants to present.

Reporter: What does he like?

Sun Jiabo: liking is a kind of feeling, without any reason, not to convey the truth, not to tell you something or educate you with this work. He is not like this. Later, he his grandson was born, so he made a lot of grandsons, lying on the lotus leaf, crawling, urinating, eating, all kinds of things like that. What do you think this is to show, to show how vivid a child is or a child's growth? It is not. He just liked his grandson, and loved him so much that he made all kinds of things about him. That is just the kind of things he likes. That’s all.

Reporter: The works he creates are very ideal. These things seem very specific. For example, the grandson just said, the actions are specially realistic. What he makes is very idealistic. Why does he make these things?

Sun Jiabo: I'm afraid it is not idealism, but an aestheticism, because he thinks this is beauty. And I think he does not pay attention to it. When he made them, he did not pay any attention to it. I personally did not pay attention to it, either. If you ask me what I am making, in fact I do not know what it is. At the beginning of this year, we, the graduate students held an exhibition. What I had to do was to write something to introduce the works, but I couldn't even write it down. I couldn't even get a name for it. When an artist is creating works, if he thinks of that, he may not do it. Including the situation when you are making a work, and you think this is good before it is finished, it must be a failure. It is true that he doesn’t know what he wants to present, I’m afraid. He's very direct, and if he thinks that's the beauty, he just makes it. Maybe someone gives him this analysis and that, but it is not necessarily what he originally thought. That’s what I mentioned just now that he is a real man, a sincere person. He is just doing what he loves. He does not have that many thoughts, I'm afraid, and he cannot make so many good works with that many thoughts, which would have confined him, so he couldn't do it any more.

Next time when somebody does something else, he would think what he has done. That would be over. In that way good works would never come out. I think that artistic labor is a particularly direct and simple one. It is not complex. First, you must have ideas. Foreign ideas are very popular right now and I believe that ideas are the artistic creation path. Before the Cultural Revolution the concept was very specific, service for the workers, peasants and soldiers, and service for socialism. That was the idea. What you should say at that time was particularly clear. Later in the period of the reform and opening up, our school celebrated the anniversary, so I made a statue of my mother to participate in the exhibition, but the school authority didn't accept my work. The leaders said no, but I asked why not, since it was an anniversary of CAFA, it was quite appropriate. He said my spirit was too low. These are two different ideas. He thought art must be positive but I thought it was not the way of artistic creation. Including recently, the Millennium Monument that we wanted to create the statues of forty Chinese celebrities.

From the beginning to the end, the Politburo made the criteria for who to choose, how to create, various requirements, what size, standing actions. It is OK, but for mood, they should be in high spirits. How? The word is the same as those used in the Cultural Revolution, which I couldn't even remember. And they wanted to give an upward feeling! If I make the sculpture of Lao Tzu, he has to keep an upward feeling. However, he was a hermit, how could he do that! It is very difficult. They are two completely different ideas. The artistic works cannot confine the artists. How can they manage it with such a confinement?

He should be artistically a realism, rather than idealistic. What we learnt was about socialist realism at that time, like Tolstoy's theory of art, which is all about realism. He is the reality, not an ideal. His own life is quite hard, and he had been unlucky until he got to the electric kiln, when he turned out to like Henan Opera especially, and also the Henan Opera actors. He went there for what he liked. He went to Henan, because there was a chance that someone had to go to there. It was good that he would go. Arriving there, he had nothing left, no love, no home, no professional work, but teaching in a middle school. And he lived there like that, until later on his friend found him his present wife. Later, he came back, also with the help of a friend to get to the National Museum of Chinese History (now the National Museum of China) to work in modelling antiques. Before that, his life was all pretty sad, but I think it is particularly rewarding for him. My life at that time was very similar to his.

After graduation, I was assigned to Fujian Province, where I did everything. I farmed in the countryside, worked in the factory. I think it is not bad for me, to be more exact, very good. However, this life did not form his idealism. No! He is still making what he likes in reality, making what he favours and what moves him. That is what we have later realized about him. A person like him, in fact, in this small environment of our sculpture department, frankly speaking, was not regarded as a teacher, not a teacher at all. In this situation, he could stay there, completely because he liked these things. He stayed in that room which had been rejected by everyone, because others had a studio each, or two people sharing one, or one teacher with one studio. I had a cabin, but I couldn't work there, and what’s more, I liked to do that, so we went there. He could stay there, which was like a favour the school did for him so he was not to go there to be a teacher, or for the salary, but for what he liked, for such a long time. Until later when the school was torn down, the little room was gone. I have forgotten how long (Staying beside the electric kiln), for four or five years, quite long, maybe more than that. It was about seven or eight years, from the early 90s until the school moved to another location.

As I said just now, he is sincere, and this has had the biggest impact on me. It is the so-called “to steal art” and “to steal skills”, because I watched how he created, then I followed. It is not to see what he makes. I watch him doing what I feel is very good, just as I said before, which is about a sketch on the nature of works. We are all in the pursuit of freehand brushwork, not realistic, but freehand brushwork to express our artistic conception the most fully. The freehand brushwork does not come out soon, and it has something to do with speed, because the sculpture cannot happen overnight. What he is doing is freehand brushwork, as Shi Tao said it is the art of a stroke. This is his art. Being huge but empty is worthless. I think sculpture does not have to be big. I had an argument with my teacher. He thinks a sculpture is a form of propaganda, forcing you to see, which is publicity. I don't think so. This is just one way to do it. It is just as the French art comes to China, telling us your Chinese sculpture is a Soviet sculpture, and Soviet sculpture is a German sculpture, that is, the Fascist German sculpture. Why? This is propaganda, a tool used for propaganda. That is, to say, to make you accept it, not something to express feelings. The modern and abstract works express feelings, and they are something that expresses a writer's feelings, so I don't think it has to be huge to move people, but small pieces are particularly moving, because it is particularly directly expressed. It is a real work of art. I think Mr. Liu's value is that he is seriously engaged in art. His work is to convey that very clearly. Very good. Whatever the method he uses, he is also learning from the West. He considers anatomy when he creates, and this is shown in many of his works. He has often talked to me about the anatomy, but what he made is not something seemingly huge or real. He just expresses his feelings.

I just said the French quite understand art, which inspired me greatly. When I stayed in France, I picked up a beam to make a wood carving, completely homesick. When I was making it, I considered a lot of learning the Western sculpture regularity, such is how to turn, and the relationship of a few faces. I considered this a lot. When it was finished, I carried it out for the exhibition, to an exhibition room in the Art City. When crossing the street, a lot of people asked me to put it down for them to see, because they thought it looked good. And I asked why they thought it was good looking, they said because it was Chinese. And I found it very strange. I did not pursue the Chinese, I didn't make it Chinese in fact my technique was all Western. All I thought of were Western techniques, but they said it was Chinese. I later understood why. That was because I didn't think so much of the Chinese, but I am a Chinese person, and I was feeling homesick, so I made such a sculpture. My spirit was all in it. I was not trying to express what was Chinese, nor to express the modern, nor to sell it for money, so I made it. Mr. Liu is like this, which is all the influence of Mr. Liu on me. Those works he makes are not the results of considering techniques, or western techniques, he has to consider, but his expression is from his heart. He is Chinese, so his works are Chinese, and that's why they are moving.

Can the works be big, of course they can, and he can create big pieces. Li Zicheng, which we made together, is big, more than three meters high. Yes they can be big. As I said before, he is a strong master of sculpture language. I just said that there are two gentlemen in their class who are special. That is to say, they can make   three-dimensional works, with a particularly strong sense of volume. He can do this. The size does not matter, and they can make big pieces or small but the key is his eyes, his eyes can see. I think it is nothing. The pottery technology I know is all taught by Mr. Liu, such as the temperature, alchemy, no gas, no mess. When I made a series of sheep, I spent a whole summer vacation to pick up the dresses from the clay. I made the few sheep, actually nothing, and the so-called technologies are just how to glaze and shape the embryo. Once I taught in Jordan, and an English colleague taught pottery there, from whom I learned for a while. I tried to learn how to shape the embryo for several months but failed. The other aspects are not big deals.

Reporter: When the students wanted his works, he gave them to the students. Right?

Sun Jiabo: Yes, this is another performance of his sincerity. He does not trade his works for money. I had a French buddy, with whom I went to see Mr. Liu. He particularly liked the works when he saw them, but he was an artist, and he was teaching, so he did not have much money. When he told me that he didn't have so much money, I told him never minded, then I said it to Mr. Liu. I didn't ask Mr. Liu to give it to him, but Mr. Liu said he could take whichever he liked. He hesitated but finally he took one, when he left. This is to say that Mr. Liu does not create for fame or wealth. He makes it just because he likes that. If you like it, he will give it to you. Now maybe he is stingy, and there are less opportunities like that, because it is more difficult to create one. He is not willing to give them away. Things are different now.

To be honest, he was not respected as he deserved, as if he was just provided with a shelter, so his value, his everything was not recognized. Our then leaders did not find anything good in his works. Definitely not. He was never given a chance to teach, and he was given the same pay as that to a mechanic. They collected him here. He has strong self-esteem, and generally many people have this weakness. Given his strong self-esteem, we try to avoid mentioning all these before him. He himself knows that it is not bad to be given such a good place, and he has never regarded himself as a teacher of the Central Academy of Fine Arts. He realizes it, and he says he is not. He rides a tricycle here every day, works here a whole day then goes back home. At noon, he makes his lunch do with two pancakes. The way he eats is especially infectious. With indigestion, I do not want to eat, but when I go to him there to eat with him, immediately I want to eat, by seeing his devouring. That is why he is so healthy.

Reporter: Is he not demanding of life?

Sun Jiabo: Too low. I can say he has been at the bottom of the society. He is so simple and his art is so brilliant, but he never regards himself as an artist. So, he does not care what others think of him. He does not care what the people at our school think of him, either. He does not care what people in the society think of him. While he was copying antiques in the museum, it was as if the things between genuine and fake saved him, which had the chance to let him back to Beijing. However, he learned a lot of traditional things there. Because he is an artist, the nature can't be changed. He is happy when he has something to do all day. That's all. So he refuses to leave here. He is unwilling to leave the electric kiln. He comes to it to work there every day, because he loves it addicatedly.

I don't think he has ever considered himself a teacher of the Academy of Fine Arts or an artist. He absolutely not. He doesn't care about this, because he thinks it is pretty good to be given a chance to do so. I think the real artists are all such; no one care about all those. If you want to care about the good things, you can not make a success. As just-said Van Gogh, all day he was painting. He didn't enter the college, he wanted to get something from the college. He absolutely didn't care about if he was an artist. He did not mess with those people. Mr. liu always thinks he is one of the most ordinary lower people. It is pretty good to stay here.

Reporter: Why is he the most ordinary lower-class?

Sun Jiabo: He was hit by the bad luck, and later stayed in Henan, which is the most basic place of the most ordinary people. You may have not been to that place, which is a place after your arriving there, all the feeling of the central government has long gone. Especially we once went to the countryside, and stayed in the factory, we are quite happy to have such a place to work, making things here. Now that you like this, if you want the position of a teacher, or the title of an artist, you are going too far, too insensible of you.
I like his works, and I do think they are good. Admit it or not, I think we have a big gap of age, but we are the same in this respect, just as if we were of the same age, because we are both making things, without considering the value of the works. Until now I never think my works are good, although I was often flattered, yet I don't think they are good. He is the same and he won't think his things are so valuable.

Maybe we did it very well together, half of his and half of mine. We did it very well together, because we both miss the shabby kiln. Although extremely broken, not existing now, knocked down already, it was only a temporary work shed, a kiln was put in it. Originally they wanted to establish a department of ceramics, including Wu Jinyong, who was a formal teacher. He was organizing all this. He bought a lot of the equipment, They were all fixed there. At the same time, Mr. Liu came here, but he was not an official faculty, but worked as a mechanic, just like a carpenter in that place. He had been making all the things there, and I was working with him again. We played together, feeling very good, so he was reluctant to leave, affirmatively. If you were doing it, you would be addicted, too, and you would be staying here, too, until the final demolition. And we couldn't help it, but went away. He also did not care about his vanity or pride, just worked here. This is his dedication, and is what he likes.

Reporter: You mentioned this as an addiction?

Sun Jiabo: Addiction, yes, and this period of time is also the time when he created most of his works. It was in the electric kiln for a period of time, originally he had had no time or opportunity, and this period of time was very precious for him, so he was not willing to leave. It had nothing to do with me, and at most I was a companion. I think I respected him very much, because he had some problem with his legs so he also needed somebody to take care of him. What’s more, I was very dissatisfied with the school's attitude towards him. He was a human anyway, yet was not regarded as a formal person, but a beggar. I thought this was too bad.

Reporter: Why do you call it a beggar?

Sun Jiabo: It is unfair to have pity on him and kept him here and only gave him such a small sum of money. Even if he had not been an artist, or he had been an ordinary person, he should not be treated like that. And he graduated from here, and he should not be ill-treated by others. Now many people and you said that he did not talk to the point. What he said was all the concept. You now want to talk about him, and he tells you something good to listen to. In fact, no one faced him at that time in the right way but asked him to look after the kiln. No one paid any attention to his works.

Then we come back to the topic again: there are two kinds of artists. We cannot only say there are two kinds of artists, and actually I think all the people are divided into two kinds. One kind is the artist, while the other is the politicians. When I say the politician I do not mean he is the Marxist-Leninist or the Communist Party, the Nationalist Party. I mean those who are struggling just for the fame and the fortunes. Most of them are in this category, whereas the other small number of artists are those who like their work, devote themselves to art. If they like this, they do not have any distractions, but get down to their creation. Mr. Liu is in this group. He and his energy and his dedication are all combined together. He never asks how much money he can get, but a chance for him to do what he likes, which will satisfy him. He is an artist, who is sincere with full devotion. I think this is such a simple standard.

Reporter: To stand aloof from worldly affairs?

Sun Jiabo: The so-called aloof from worldly affairs is because no one contends with me for what I want, so why I fight? I do not have the time for fighting, because I have to spend that time doing my own business.

Reporter: Everyone will do that.

Sun Jiabo: You mean it is just for a living.

Reporter: Right.

Sun Jiabo: He has got enough money for food, and he has his salary, of course which is not a bad one. In the Cultural Revolution, when he had just got married, he earned eighty yuan each month, out of which he sent sixty yuan back to raise the family, so he had 20 yuan left for himself.

Reporter: When was it?

Sun Jiabo: When he was in Henan. This man has special loyalty. I once said that he was a living Buddha, Jigong. He doesn't have so much leisure, not so many things to do, but he has a lot of hobbies, many many hobbies, otherwise he won't make so many works. He is not sitting in the mountains still, but he has his seven emotions and six desires. Yes, he absolutely has, so he can have so many things to make.

Reporter: He can do everything?

Sun: Yes. He has everything. He has love, and he also likes to eat. He is a very normal person. He is not a man  hidden himself in the mountain practicing Buddhism or Taoism practice, standing aloof from worldly lives. By contrast, he is an artist, who has his love, who has his dream, so he does not want anything else. We can not behave like that, for we are here in the society to cope with a lot of things. We have to think about them. He has always asked me to get down to what I should do. I am involved in a lot of affairs that I have to handle. Actually, he has a very good position; people don't see him as a teacher or a researcher, which is actually much better for him. He never has any dispute with anybody.

Reporter: How does he feel?

Sun Jiabo: All these works reflect it. What does it reflect? It reflects that he can make things. If he puts the heart elsewhere, he can't create so many works. Do you understand? Whether he has some works or not is a big definition of this man. He has what he likes, and makes them out. Having so many pieces of works shows that his heart is not elsewhere but in this.

Reporter: I mean, as you said just now, Mr. Liu is very emotional.

Sun Jiabo: Yes.

Reporter: I said in addition to the works, which can be seen, because our program is more abstract, what is his experience and understanding of things, in the time of your contact with him, do you think there are other things which he is rich of?

Sun Jiabo: He's so rich. For example, I will show you the simplest case. He once called me on the phone, but handed it up in a very short while because he was afraid that I would spend much money. I called him yesterday, and we talked and talked for such a long time. Do you know why? I saw my son off yesterday, and he was afraid that I should feel sad, or feel lonely when I was alone, so he just chatted with me on the phone. He is especially emotional. This is just an example, a small example of this case. He has special feelings to other people. For example, when I and my mother lived in the Academy of Fine Arts, we lived on very simple food and the meals were carelessly made, so he always brought me something good to eat, such as pancakes with meat inside, steamed bread with peanut filling. This man is particularly fond of life. He's very emotional.

Reporter: There are a lot of shadow puppets, but do you think there are a lot of them in daily life? Do you think he can see it when he is making them or it comes from the family?

Sun Jiabo: He makes different human bodies in different stages. When we were doing research for advanced studies, I knew all that he was making. I don't know if they are appropriate or not. For example, when he makes human bodies, he is distinct in presenting the aspect of sex, which shows his seven emotions and six desires. He thinks that he likes that, so he makes it, which is nothing special. I think it is much better than making the mechanical flying men. For example I just said the teacher who had come back after being punished for rightism, he is a teacher of politics. Usually, we a few people work together, but there is a teacher who makes his works very mechanically. Making things like that, no matter how real it is, I still think it is pale beside what Mr. Liu makes, because there is his love and the feelings showed in his works.

Reporter: That is to say, he just puts inside what he loves without any messy distractions?

Sun Jiabo: Yes. So you say that this is also very modern, to the modern works, he expresses very directly, neither Chinese, nor Western, but he expresses his feelings, so analyzed from this point, he is very modern.

Reporter: What did you mean by saying that?

Sun Jiabo: It depends on which specific work.

Reporter: For example, you mentioned that he created the human bodies.

Sun Jiabo: He found several people to do it.

Reporter: That might be a carrier for him later?

Sun bowl: I should have seen all his works so what you just said, I think, is very good. He is very different from others about presenting sex. You can see, it is different. He is more direct, with more connotation, and he is not to let others see. Those which want to let others see is to make foreigners recognize them. There is a farmer sculptor who also creates sculptures, and a lot of genitals of his works are gigantic. He is to let foreigners see how good they are. Liu is not, and we can say his works are very connotative. If it is a sex worship, and if this is the beauty, what he has created shows very strong power of sex, which he may not let others see.

Reporter: Is it just like him, this direct expression?

Sun Jiabo: Yes. this is quite direct and shows his personality.

Reporter: He doesn't care that much?

Sun Jiabo: Right.

Reporter: He just wants to make this, because he likes it. He makes this not to let others see. Regarding the new subject, it is not to please others. This is his usual style. There is something, nowadays, just to let others see, such as paintings of horn braids and red undergarments, just in order to show this is Chinese, but actually not necessarily. How many years have you been in France?
Sun Jiabo: Only a few days to six months, I have been to France several times, the longest is nearly half a year.

Reporter: Pretty long.

Sun Jiabo: Yes. I understand what art is. I saw and I analyzed why they liked this, and why they didn't like that, and understood that they did make sense. Why it is art, although it is not like everyone thinks what art is, it is very intuitive expression of feelings, such as sketch drawings.

Reporter: When was that head made?

Sun Jiabo: This head was made when we were in the electric kiln.

Reporter: Was it made then?

Sun Jiabo: Yes.

Reporter: Why was it made?

Sun Jiabo: We saw his head was too similar to that of a god. The eyes were those that no one could imitate, extremely bright and extraordinarily beautiful. I couldn't make it. When someone came to us, he always wanted to imitate Picasso, and when he had a photo taken, he always kept his eyes widely open, but still they were not like those of Piccasso. Picasso's eyes were like his, especially bright.

Reporter: Do you think his works vivid?

Sun Jiabo: Very special. His image is that of the Monk, Jigong. When I want to draw Jigong, I draw it according to him.

Reporter: Why?

Sun Jiabo: Because his life and his temperament are that of Jigong. In fact, these things are unified in his life experience, and his personalities are shown on his head.

Reporter: Do you mean the head, right?

Sun Jiabo: This is unified, which is hard to say, and this is called implicit. It is really hard to say, not the surface image, and you have to know it with an induction. Everyone has his own view, and it is a matter of opinion. As the faces are categorized into glyph and square shape, bodies are not in this way. If you are an artist, when you are doing the sculpture, you have to summarize what characters he has, the character of his nose, eyes, mouth, but probably we do not. It is direct, and I think it is a direct performance.

Reporter: (Question missing)...

Sun Jiabo: I'm not satisfied, I didn't make it out, at least I could not make his eyes as expected, which are so bright so I couldn't make it exactly.

Reporter: And those of Picasso.

Sun Jiabo: It seems to be very difficult to to mold it, because I made a sculpture of Cao Yu. I said I wanted to make his eyes bright, but my friend said that they were bright enough, so I did not have to.

Reporter: How much is that?

Sun Jiabo: He didn't say it. We did not talk about it. However, he fired it, and I had finished it then he fired it.

Reporter: Is it?

Sun Jiabo: Usually when we finished a work, he fired it. He worked in the morning, and I worked in the afternoon, then I closed the kiln.

Reporter: This state is already very sacred.

Sun Jiabo: Yes?

Reporter: And this look.

Sun Jiabo: Yes?

Reporter: He looks young.

Sun Jiabo: Yes. He does not look old, especially the eyes, which are as shining as usual without any change. They are so bright, which is rare. A man of God! He is real, and it is right for you to introduce him, to introduce a real man, and real art. This is at present especially needed to promote to the world, because now many people don't know what true art is, not to mention a real man.