Sui Jianguo, Professor, Director of the Department of Sculpture, Central Academy of Fine Arts, Vice President of Chins Sculpture Institute

Reporter: When did you come into contact with Mr. Liu?

Sui Jianguo: The earliest time I was in contact with Mr. Liu was when the Central Academy of Fine Arts was still in Wangfujing, just when I was majoring in my postgraduate. We had a pottery studio in our Department, with a kiln furnace inside. In the back of a classroom, an old man frequently came and went. Sometimes he carried a small sculpture, and sometimes a big piece of clay. Later on, I was told that this old man was Mr. Liu Shiming. I didn’t attend his class, but at that time occasionally saw that he had a small gadget, fired a small pot or a small house. It was not until 1998, when he had retired, and then I was serving as the Dean of the Department. It was 1998. When the school had moved to Jiuxianqiao, a gallery exhibition was held to enliven the atmosphere in the Department. A teacher suggested that we should run an exhibition for Mr. Liu, since there was a gallery ready. I had not learned that Mr. Liu had so many works until the exhibition started. There were 40 or 50 pieces on display, and there were many others which were not included. I was very impressed, because teachers in the Department of Sculpture usually did not have so many pieces of works at hand. You see, for half a century, the Department of Sculpture in the Central Academy of Fine Arts mostly took the national projects, with the large-scale sculptures, so very few teachers could hold exhibitions of their own personal works. Then Mr. Liu should be one of them, only one or two. Mr. Liu was very excited and shed tears. I was very impressed.

I think Mr. Liu’s works really reflect the life of their generation and their view of art. Because Mr. Liu should belong to the first batch of students that our new China cultivated. The Central Academy of Fine Arts or various other domestic colleges and universities, sooner or later, in fact, were first established by the group of people like Xu Beihong who had brought back the Western writing system of art to save the country. At that time, the Chinese painting industry was declining. This could not be closely related to the real life. After the May 4th Movement, the country was in danger, which should be urgently saved. The way to save the country was to learn from the Western science. After arriving in the West, they found that this realistic Western system was both scientific and rigorous, which conquered these Chinese intellectuals, so they moved on. Since this set of things brought it closer to social reality, its entire system is easy to be systematically taught. Because in the past, all the Chinese paintings or sculptures had been in the studios, and the masters passed them to the apprentices. If you made sculptures, the temple sculptures, the porcelain sculptures, it was also from a master to his apprentice. There were no textbooks, either. The master taught what he could for thousands of years, and of course, it was getting weaker and weaker. If you look at the whole history of ancient Chinese sculptures, you can see that in the Han and Tang dynasties, it was magnificent with a great spirit, and the whole pattern of the atmosphere, but to the Song, Yuan, Ming and Qing dynasties, it had been declining generation to generation.

Reporter: What do you think is responsible for that?

Sui Jianguo: I think it is the system itself. The system itself, though well developed and perfect, but it did not have the ability to renew itself. Throughout the world, it is generally believed that Chinese culture had stopped in the 18th and 19th centuries. I think it is the same with sculpture. In this case, such interruptions are comprehensive, not just the culture and the art, also the whole economy. Therefore, by the end of the 19th century, the great China was defeated by the foreigners with only two ships, and even the emperor rushed to Chengde, so I think it was the whole system, which could not fight against the whole civilization. So, in this case, the intellectuals saw the situation. That’s why we had to save the country. The way to save the country was, of course to resist the strong foreign aggression, but it's even more important for us to learn from others, to find out why the others were so strong, and to make ourselves strong. Thus, the system came into China. The first group of students like Mr. Liu, were among those who were cultivated by China itself after the liberation, because when schools were set up, they trained people. After liberation, because of its close relationship with the Soviet Union, China had students going to study in Soviet Union. The teachers returning from France taught a generation of students trained in their own way, from which more and more were chosen and sent to study in the Soviet Union every year. What was brought back later by the subsequent students returning from the Soviet Union was of much stronger socialism in its nature. The so-called socialist culture and art, I think were basically advocated by Chairman Mao, just to serve the public, to reflect the social reality, so Mr. Liu and his generation basically used this idea to think. Thus, I have found Mr. Liu’s pottery works are all about life, the life that he has experienced, the life that he has seen. They are very simple, showing his main characteristics.

There is also a gap from the art taught in the college, for what the academies teach is the mode of Greece, Rome, or France and Italy, or even the Russian mode, which is just to sketch pictures in front of models. However, this way of sketching is more clumsy in real life, because the real life is so rich, and you must digest it thoroughly, then you can do it very skillfully, and it may show up naturally when you start it. You simply can’t just find a model for comparison. So, in Mr. Liu’s pottery works, I think he really has the Chinese traditional functioning in it. The Chinese tradition is that, in the most typical Chinese landscape paintings, seeing the appearances and knowing the origins inside. That means you see the mountains and rivers in the paintings, but after looking closely, you can get something into your heart. It seems just a flourish of the pen and it’s done, which doesn’t allow you to sketch it, or trace it carefully, or even take a picture and come back to draw. That stuff has not a taste. By contrast, Mr. Liu’s pottery works are the life that he has seen. He is completely involved with feelings which he has experienced. He made it without any reference, so I think what he makes is a social reality having filtered with his heart. This is one aspect. Another aspect is that most of his works reflect rural life, and I think that this is part of him. Because, after all, you built up your awareness of life when you were young, and whatever place you go in the future, even to the city, those things are buried deeper and deeper, but they will get stronger and stronger.

I think his works are the life coming up gradually from the experiences of his youth or childhood. The Central Academy of Fine Arts encourages artists to experience life. In fact, when you experience your life, and see life there, what you really triggered is your own life. I think what he makes is his own life and the life state of the largest population of the society that he sees. The two ideas are mixed together. As a matter of fact, since 1998 Mr. Liu has already lived in the city, for thirty or forty years. Why does he insist on showing his pastoral life? I think it might be the so-called human nostalgia. People from the more natural, the more primitive pastoral life come to the metropolis, and they will face a completely strange life, the urban life, so they have to adapt to this pace, and adapt to the new way. However, just because of this, the pastoral life of the past, will instead stubbornly appear, which will make you miss that life. It becomes more and more precious. Maybe when you're getting older, it will come out at the due time.

I think all the literary art of romanticism in the West in the 18th and 19th centuries was in the process of capitalist development, urbanization, and industrialization, with the nostalgia or a counter potential aspect of everyone in the pastoral life of the past agricultural era. The longer it is in such a life, the more it longs for its past life, mostly a pastoral life. These things he has made, I think, are an instinct resistance to or a reflection on the urban life. I think, basically, nowadays, everybody is talking about the urban development, the urban planning, and the urban lifestyle, and it is possible that some people always talk about the nostalgia for the past pastoral life, or even to beautify the ideal life of the past. I think this is what human beings fear of the new life, on the one hand, and also the nostalgia for the past life, on the other hand. It is very simple. When you are living in a concrete forest every day in the city, take a car every day, with dust and air pollution, and with the pollution of the night lights, you think the mountains are so beautiful, but when you really go to the mountains, with mosquitoes biting you, with unreliable transportation, insufficient hygiene, your original yearning for a beautiful rural life will suddenly break. Nonetheless, I think now the industrialization and modernization are the progressive pace of human society. In the process, human beings, on the one hand, pursue the future, while on the other hand, are fearful of the future. You want to go back in this way, but you can’t, so in the works of art, the past is presented as beautifully as possible. I think, of these ceramic works by Mr. Liu, there are actually these two aspects.

Reporter: The growth began in the Central Academy of Fine Arts of more than ten years.

Sui Jianguo: I think he has slowly found a way, including the dimensions. If you want to do it freely, more casually, only on such a scale, it can be molded directly with clay. If you want to make a big piece, say over 60 cm, you might need a frame, some wires or something else, which removes the feelings of the blood all at once, for you will have to submit to this frame. And when you are setting up the frame, all the structural problems arise. Only with this size, twenty or thirty centimeters, can it be made by using clay directly and more casually. And after it is made with clay, you don’t have to worry about saving it, but just fire it then it will last forever. If you follow the usual method in the school, and you make a work bigger in size with clay, you have to make it into plaster, then to convert it into other materials, in which the artist’s control is completely gone, or be offset a lot. Mr. Liu, by using this method, molded it directly with clay and then fired it into pottery. He feels it is perfectly controllable, from the beginning to the end. I think he has slowly found the way, so keeps on going in that way. I think it is not easy for an artist to find his own way, his own way of expression. If he thinks this is right for him, and the idea suits him, when it is finished, he thinks it is satisfying, and it is just what he wants, the idea is then formed.

Reporter: Is this the only method or are there still others?

Sui Jianguo: This size is only one thing.

Reporter: At that time, there was an electric kiln.

Sui Jianguo: Now we have a big electric kiln. No matter how big the electric kiln is, he has to keep it within this scale if he wants to make freehand. Once it is larger than this scale, all the technologies have to change, so he will not make it so freely. It is similar to that when you are drawing a Chinese painting with a brush and rice paper, its ink paint accommodation almost limits the scale of the painting. If you want to draw a particularly big one, you have to use a different brush, make another piece of paper, so it is all changed. Yes. It was since 1997, when I served as the dean, he had retired. When I was in graduate school, I saw him making things here and there, and I also went to see them. Because of its small size, I thought he was good at everything, but without thinking deeply. I did not think that he would make so many. Things like this are hard to move people without a quantity. If you just see one or two of them in this size, you cannot understand what it is talking about. This is very interesting.

For example, here is a poem, and if it is a four-line poem, with four sentences, and seven characters in each line, it expresses something. Sometimes you can find this poem very interesting, and very insightful, and also very poetic, but without so many psalms to foil it, you don't feel that poem is so splendid. It is associated with the long, invisible poems. Because Mr. Liu’s work is full of life, and it is somewhat narrative, it must contain one thing in one piece of work. You can't feel its spirit by seeing only one piece, but when it shows all of them, you find it a bit like an epic. It contains stories told one after another, and finally, it reveals all of life. At this time you will be moved, and if you see only one little story, you will feel touched, but not very touched. You, through his work, see the whole of his life. The key is that through his attention, he shows all the life of society and his own life, and I think it is very impressive.

Reporter: What is the situation of domestic sculpture today?

Sui Jianguo: I think there should be no uniform rules. That is to say, each artist has his own life and his own experience. With his own life experience, or in a certain period to establish his own aesthetic system, he will naturally make his own choice. We cannot advocate a method, and then belittle the other methods. I think, on the one hand, art can be rich, because the enrichment of life is the premise of rich art. Right? This is the most fundamental purpose of art, which is to give play to everyone's personality, for everyone's life experience or educational experience should shape a person in principle. The generation of Mr. Liu happened to be in the period of the closed state, from the early 1950s to the late 1970s, the whole country was closed. All information from various parts of the world was filtered. In such a case, it's hard to say that it is close or narrow, but the advantage was that it didn’t interfere too much, either. People could be more steadfast, concentrate on the things they cared about.

I think Mr. Liu’s art should have been produced in such an atmosphere. In fact, I think his art is still a spontaneous correction of the more classic style of socialist creation, because of the already classic methods, as Marx said, the typical plots and the typical characters in a typical life. If you follow this standard, all the things in all the works of art should be filtered when they are created, so the details of life, maybe the most interesting things will be filtered out. Mr. Liu is instinctively insisting to his own method which makes his life and his dream. He doesn’t care about the typical and would rather not be the so-called typical, but makes what he wants and what he thinks. Eventually, I think, he is beyond this typical quality. In addition, you can say that he has created his own typical quality, the life he has seen, and the most interesting thing, which can be recognized by others.

Reporter: The most ideal creation.

Sui Jianguo: The ideal way should be to immerse yourself in doing what you want to do and what you like to do. Don't care about the so-called standards, all kinds of standards, whether new standards or old standards. You have to establish your own standards. Only with your own standards, can your art be established. If you build the standards on the basis of others, you will never have your own art. No matter how fashionable or popular it is, when ninety-nine per cent of people are doing it, you should do what you want to do.

Reporter: Who is more interested in doing these dedicated things?

Sui Jianguo: He is in this state. This state may be voluntary, or may also be involuntary. Probably before the 1980s, he made these things in the Department, or when there was no market in the 1990s, he would not think if he could sell them. First, he made them without the distraction and he wouldn't think what kind of people could buy his works. Right? And he didn't think about whether his works were typical or not, or if they could participate in the major exhibitions, or if they would win any prize. I feel that he had extinguished the idea, but a bit of self-entertaining, believing there must be bosom friends around him. Mr. Liu’s works are interesting, which will move others. With a few bosom friends, it is enough to support him to do what he wants, because people cannot be completely sealed off.

Reporter: But I think at this time, we see what he has made, and I think there is another thing I want to mention. Mr. Liu is a sign of the Central Academy of Fine Arts, and it seems that when he was in school, he made something and showed it abroad, which was very good at that time, very remarkable, and got some prizes or something. Later on, in 1950 or 1951, also in school, or maybe just graduated, then in 1958, when he was not so excellent, no matter what the rest of his life experience was and no matter how his sculpture was, including the period of the Cultural Revolution, it is possible that it is not spontaneous, but he makes an exception.
Sui Jianguo: I think there are two factors. One is his search, his inner unconscious request, and the other is the  external influences. If he didn’t go all out, did not meet so many soul mates of pottery in China, or the art related to pottery, maybe he does not have so deep an understanding, or he will not choose to do it like this. I think the advantage is that he met such an opportunity, which just meets his inner needs, so this appears.

Reporter: Many people say that his creation method is very close to those, and you can see the shadow of Chinese classical sculpture. The way he makes his sculptures, with the exaggeration of a certain part, is not very limited to realism. People like him are now advocated or not advocated in your teaching, or whether this creation method is right or wrong?

Sui Jianguo: Up to now, you see, it has been nearly 30 years since the reform in the 1970s. Now we are all very open in this regard, I mean very tolerant. A student can make things in his own way, and he can have his own pursuit, but in the main courses, there is a set of training methods, which actually is mainly to give the students a foundation. If you graduate in the future, you also stick to this method, and you can't put it away, and you cannot live without it, that's your own problem. Of course you can do it in this way. You think this method coincides with you, and fits you well, that would be fine. I think the key is that people should find their own way. On this issue, I think either the tradition or the foreign new influences or the trend is not so important, which cannot support your work of art. The support point is that you have found it for yourself. Of course, we are all Chinese, and when it comes to tradition, it is very emotional. However, I don't think tradition can support it. A pillar that helps you to rebuild, and to reset is nothing but you yourself. Tradition is just one part of the many nutrients. An art that has to really grow up, is like building a house, with beams, bamboo, walls, doors and windows, with a roof as well. All factors together build the house which can stand up, without any of which it cannot be built. Therefore, while the tradition is very beautiful, and our tradition is very good, very impressive, very admirable, if you just admire it, you don't have anything of yourself. This, of course, is not a new truth, and this is completely verified in the whole art history. The key is yourself.

Reporter: Is this kind of work of Mr. Liu, in the style he established before, his own style of method, creating constantly, encouraged?

Sui Jianguo: Being discouraged or not is a question. I think maybe we have to make things in this form, but as for his own way, this practice should be worthy. As what you just said, that is to say everyone, when you see something, Western or Eastern or something, you should not submit to it, and throw yourself away. You should take it as a nutrient, and ultimately establish your own things.

Reporter: Do you think Mr. Liu has established it?

Sui Jianguo: I think he should have established it. This establishment is very interesting. We cannot say that you established it at the beginning when you started to make it. You may or may not be mature at first, and then you keep on making and making slowly, and until it makes you completely intoxicated, fully handy, or you have told a lot of stories. Finally it has turned into a big story, has turned into an epic poem, into a structure moving enough, so I think at this time you have got there. After gaining a foothold, it's good to look back at it. No matter if you find its flaws or see something else, but even if you do not see the big thing, you still see the wonderful individuals. There is the most typical example, Picasso, who is the greatest artist of human history. Look at those oil paintings in his teens, or something that he painted, he was a genius at that time. If he had died at the age of thirty, you don't think he would be seen as a genius. It is because he lived up to 60 or 70 years old with such brilliant achievements, you see that from his earliest paintings, a Picasso factor started at that time, so he is a genius. I think it is such a truth that all things put together as a whole moves you, so every part of it is glowing. For the works of Mr. Liu, I can’t say from what specific time it was established, but I do see it in the exhibition, and I think they are very good things. Maybe he has the experience, when he started to feel about making things so handy, not feeling awkward or clumsy, just doing it, borrowing something from others, absorbing something. I suppose at that time it is mature and gains a foothold.

Reporter: You think you found it good the first time that you saw his exhibition. Why?

Sui Jianguo: As I just said, it is that his works have characteristics. One is his strong elements in the life of reality, and another is his narrative, but he narrates all life, and constructs a stage for life, which enables art to have a strong ability to impress people, and another is that he has left the orthodox things of school, and has found something of his own.

Reporter: You think the abstract is recently learned, but I think it's more from the concept, mainly Western exposure or genetics. This may certainly keep a tradition, or the result. The process is a point of dissolution. But that is to say, things like Mr. Liu’s works are now less and less, or nearly none. I am a layman, so I can only feel and many more people can also feel that works like his are definitely not by a child, or by a man in his early twenties. But conversely, our youth today include some relatively mature artists who are also making things not like that, but probably with more abstract elements, from which you can see the current Western ideas. What do you think of it between these two points?

Sui Jianguo: I think his life experience in the time that Mr. Liu lived through, decided that his works are like this today. If he were a young person born and grown up in the city now, he should have not had such a life. When somebody was young, he did not catch fish in the pond, he did not collect firewood in the mountains and he did climb up the tree to catch cicadas, he had not such an experience. He was born watching cartoons, lingering on the computer, or wearing skates sliding on the roads. I think this kind of life will not plant the love of pastoral life deep in his heart. I think such a young person maybe show such things if he wants to express his childhood life, or his childhood dream. I think the living environment shapes and determines people's thinking, that is, I mean it is difficult to judge and compare the rural life or urban life, because society is in change or evolution. Life may be more and more convenient, but do you feel happier? Actually I think happiness is not by comparison, but it is the joy of life itself.

If you are a young life, a new life, everything around you is joyful to you, because your life is young. Every day is full of sunshine, so this memory may be very happy even if you watch cartoons every day. Why are children so willing to eat a McDonald’s? It is the problem of consumer culture, and maybe eating McDonald’s will be very sunny in his heart. Of course if we take him to the countryside today, to go fishing in the river or to catch birds in the woods, he will also keep these in mind. It depends on his experience. This experience, I feel, is important especially for young people, who are very easy to pursue something new. All that he saw when he was born was already old to him and was established. Although in my life experience, things like cars skyscrapers and even refrigerators are the freshest things, and I'm trying to adapt to these things, but for a child, it’s just being there, not at all unusual. He might also think of something more different and fresher, so I guess that’s why art is changing, and the content it reflects and the forms of it are changing. You can’t imagine if someone is living in the electronic computer era, and everyday living on modern equipment, he is interested in very old things. Only education will let him know old things are very precious, very valuable. This is education.

I don’t think so. For example, when you see Chinese paintings, splash-ink freehand brushwork, it is just several strokes, like Liang Kai painting splash-ink characters Li Bai. If you want to draw with an elaborate-style painting it will take a long time, with all the details of the clothing to draw. Liang Kai’s painting maybe took only ten minutes, and you may say that is simple and easy, and the elaborate-style painting is difficult and complicated. Right? I think this is the power of art and charm or art. You have your own workmanship and your own meaning with fine work or free work. Some works are created at a will while others are created with care and precision. You have your own choice but you can’t impose it on others. If you like to do this, and at the same time you also can appreciate others, it is the best.

Reporter: I seem to hear someone say, his small things are easy to make. According to the general vision, should we see this? You think his work is not very easy to make, but others do so, and others just will not do it. If they really do, it is so easy.

Sui Jianguo: In my opinion, Mr. Liu’s casual and hasty works are not easy, because he uses a language of self-improvement, which cannot be achieved easily by everyone. Of course you may say that he did not win when using that complicated skill, nor using particularly rare materials, and he did not use the jade for carving, and he did not use stainless steel or copper, it is pottery made of clay, very simple, but this simple work has its charm. If you say, others do not, or others will not do it, that is just why he is so valuable. Right?

Reporter: I agree. What else do you want to say?

Sui Jianguo: In fact, I don't know much about his life, so I can only say from these artistic aspects. If Sun Wei comes to join us, he has a lot of personal contact with him, and maybe he can say a lot more. Let’s see if he is here.